Principal Architect Brian Crichton returns to the podcast to discuss the intentional strategies CMBA uses to cultivate talent and build a resilient culture. In this episode, Brian explains how leaders can spot potential early, move beyond traditional annual reviews to create ongoing "micro-coaching" feedback loops, and structure growth pathways tailored to the individual.
(Skyler): Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of the Laying the Foundation podcast. My name is Skyler, and joining me today is Brian Crichton, the CEO and head honcho here at CMBA.
(Brian): Head honcho. I don't know about. I feel like I need a hat on. Like a cowboy.
(Skyler): It does feel like a hat-related term.
(Brian): I do agree.
(Skyler): Well, whatever the case, great to see you. Yeah, it's great to see you too. Great to have you. Great to be able to do the Building Culture with Brian series again this year in 2025. Four episodes. Talking about CMBA and some of our kind of internal stuff, right? Looking inwards. So it's exciting to get to do it again.
(Brian): Yeah, I had fun with it. Let's see where this goes.
(Skyler): Absolutely. Let's do it. So today we're talking about developing people, which is kind of an interesting concept in and of itself, right? We obviously have a lot of staff here at CMBA. We have a lot of different positions which someone might not think about, right? They think architecture, and they're like, okay, there's a whole bunch of architects over there, but we've got, you know, technicians, we've got interior designers, we've got the marketing department, of course.
(Brian): Yes.
(Skyler): So on and so forth. So obviously there's a lot more to it. So we'll start from the beginning, right? Like, you've got all these staff members here. We're trying to develop people; we're trying to help them be better. What all are we looking for to do? What is kind of encompassed in developing people?
(Brian): Who. That's a big question. It is a big question, definitely. You have to start at the basics, right? You have to look at each team member and say, Okay, where. What's their background? What's their history? Where, you know, maybe school, maybe previous work, what experience do they have? We'll just say it that way, right? Then you kind of look at skill sets. You look at what, from a technical aspect, have they developed themselves? What tools, software equipment, that type of thing they're using? Then we have to get down into the soft skills, right? Can they carry on a conversation across the table like this, or do we need to help them with some of that interaction ability? Because we sit in front of clients, we sit in front of contractors, we sit in front of consultants all the time, even internally with team members, and we have to be able to have a good, easy conversation, and that takes a skill. It's not something that you develop, you know, quickly unless you're, you know, God given ability that you talk to anyone. And we do have a few people like that at the company.
(Skyler): Very outgoing personalities.
(Brian): Correct. But for those that are leading the company, we need to be aware of our staff members and really just watch and try to take, kind of an inventory, if you will, or take stock of who they are, what they bring to a conversation. And then how can we build them, how can we mentor them, how can we shape them, to be the best version of themselves, not maybe to be like me, but to be the best version of themselves because they bring a unique skill set to everything. So it really takes truly thinking about people, not just the task at hand, sitting in front of us at the table as the leader, we need to be aware of what's happening around in that conversation. and that thing that we're talking about as well.
(Skyler): Seeking out those hidden talents. Exactly.
(Brian): It's a little challenging because, you know, you have to, and you don't want to think about people in terms of, hey, they're a tool or a resource because they have absolutely great abilities. You know, knowledge, passion, compassion, empathy, all of those things. And we need to think holistically about the whole person. The whole person concept, if you will. Right. And how do we help build them? That's our channel, our charge as the leaders.
(Skyler): I was going to say there's a responsibility on both ends.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): For sure. Trying to find somebody, help them grow. But at the same time, it requires us to have the patience and the dedication to know exactly how to help that person grow. So that makes a lot of sense.
(Brian): Definitely.
(Skyler): Awesome. So, are there any like, key indicators you guys are looking for? Because, as you said, it's kind of tricky to look out across the office and pick out those people that maybe have some potential for leadership or something along those lines, or those hidden talents that we talked about earlier.
(Brian): Yeah, it's interesting when you, let's say, have our all-staff meeting. We've got tables of people. Right, and they're very diverse too. Very diverse. We made that, that was specific, the way they were set up. But you can see who's leading the conversations at the tables. You can also see who's listening to that person leading the conversation. A funny thing I heard once, and I'm sure I'm not going to say this correctly, so bear with me. But you know, as a leader, if there's no one following me, if there's no one coming behind me, then I'm just a guy out for a walk. Right. So I have to have the ability to inspire others to get behind whatever vision or whatever direction that I'm trying to get them to go through, words or actions. And you can sort of see the people in the room that have that ability because people want to listen, and they truly want to interact and want to understand and maybe help. And for those that might not have that ability, what are they missing? Is it the way they present the idea, or are they not listening? Maybe when someone else is. So then they become like, eh, he's not going to listen to me anyway. Why would I want to follow? When someone doesn't want to give the way I give, I'm not going to return. And I know that might sound a little weird or petty, but that's just human nature.
If someone's not going to listen to me, I'm not going to, you know, listen and be intent on my actions if they're not giving that same, that same feeling. So, I think that's a great way of just watching people and how you interact at an all-staff type event or internally at a meeting as well. Internal staff meeting or even with a client. You know, it's those little things. It's that attention to. What's that person saying? Am I thinking of responding, or am I truly listening? That's another piece of this, of course, realist. Just, like, yeah, thinking about what I'm going to say for the next five minutes. Exactly. Paid attention. So, the leaders in our company have to watch and have to try to evaluate those skills. And not everyone was brought up to do those things. But if you can sort of see there are glimmers of. Okay, I can see that they're thinking about it. Then how do we bolster that? How do we give them encouraging feedback? It's not a personal attack. It's like, hey, if you just did this a little differently, I think you'd have a better response from either a client or consultant or whatever it may be. and see if they take that advice. Right. Also, are they coachable? That's a whole other piece to this. Absolutely. because some people have a struggle with that. Yeah. at all ages, you know, younger and more seasoned Employees, who may not have been coachable early on in their lives, and that's just continued throughout their career. So bad habits. Be coachable. Absolutely. And I think that's a key indicator, if you will. Going back to your original question, you know, can you listen well, can you, truly, be intent with your, you know, sitting with people? And then are you coachable? Definitely coachable. That's a big issue.
(Skyler): Got to be willing to learn.
(Brian): Yes.
(Skyler): And if you're completely unwilling, how can we teach you?
(Brian): Correct.
(Skyler): That makes a lot of sense.
(Brian): Yeah.
(Skyler): So let's say you look out across you during the all-staff and you see this person. They've got really, ah, great leadership. They're presenting ideas to people. Everybody's listening. They're having a great conversation where they're listening to other people who are pitching ideas, and you say that person has a lot of potential for leadership. We want to try to set a pathway for that person. What does that look like? How do we build the growth pathway, if you will?
(Brian): Yeah. And it depends on the employee and what their job description is or what their role is with the company. But we have to have opportunities. We have to think about opportunities that we can place in front of them to expand and open their wings and fly a little bit. Right. Push them out of the nest, if you will.
(Skyler): out of the office, out of the seat.
(Brian): Yeah. So at the all-staff, could I stand up and talk for two days? Sure, I could, but why would you want me to do that first? But we should give opportunities for others to stand up in front and present and to talk and to show, hey, I've got something to talk about. And I want people to get excited about and it's not comfortable. You know, you have to get out of your comfort zone when you want to be in a leadership position. And we have to provide opportunities for that at the, at the, even the smallest level on a project. Hey, young architect, I would like you to call the consultants to talk about this issue. Right. I don't have to do that as the principal all the time. We could show that we can sit side by side and be in the conversation. But the next time around, hey, please call, please get this, you know, moving. We have to continue to push them, or else we're going to continue to do things for them for the rest of their career. And that's not what we need. We need self-sufficient, self-starters willing to get out there and push. Absolutely, again, doesn't matter if it's an architect, interior designer, technician, graphic designer, social media person, whatever it may be, are you willing to take something and run with it? Absolutely. We know that it's not going to be perfect every time. Right. I'm not perfect every time. I don't claim to be perfect every time. I know I fail. But how do you learn from that? And how do we say, hey, okay, you did it, happy with it? But here are some tweaks, here are some modifications to even be more successful the next time around.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): So we build. Yeah. We have to provide opportunities if we see potential in someone, as everyone has potential. Oh, yeah. It just depends on how high they want to go. Right. But we have to provide opportunities for them to, to, you know, spread their wings, if you will.
(Skyler): Yeah.
(Brian): So.
(Skyler): Absolutely. And it's scary. It is, for sure.
(Brian): Yeah.
(Skyler): From both sides to a certain extent.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): From the leadership side, I've got to hand off some of this responsibility to this person who is very inexperienced with it. And I'm really hoping that they.
(Brian): I'm trusting this.
(Skyler): Yeah, exactly.
(Brian): Trusting that they can do it. Because I've also taken the time to invest in them.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): Yep, yep. If I haven't invested some time in that person, I'm really going to be hesitant to hand off something. But if I have spent some time, hey, here's my expectations, here's where I'd like to go with this. And then watch them, you know, along the way. Walk along with them. It's okay to then say, Okay, you can do this.
(Skyler): Right.
(Brian): And push them out there.
(Skyler): And of course, you're going to have questions as the new person. Right. This young architect or this young designer, and they're going to be like, hey, you know, I don't know how to handle this, or this aspect of this that you've kind of pushed me into. So it helps to have us along.
(Brian): Right. Yes. Come back, ask those questions. We asked those questions. When I was young. I'm sure I asked many not very intelligent questions sometimes. And, the patriarchs of our firm probably rolled their eyes when I asked those questions, but they didn't know either when they started their careers. So we have to be willing to sit down and say, Okay, I'll answer that question. I'm here to help. And over time, again, build that knowledge within an employee. Because ultimately, and people my age probably don't want to think about it, ultimately, I'm building the person who's going to take my job someday.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): I'm not going to be here forever. Someone. This is a legacy firm. We want it to continue. So we have to build the bench and continue to push them to get better and lead in the future.
(Skyler): Absolutely.
(Brian): Yeah.
(Skyler): No, that makes a lot of sense. It's kind of a lot of what Adam has talked about when we did his podcast episode about mentorship, and he talked about, you know, walking alongside. It's a two-way street. I like to think when. When you mentioned the bit about saying how you had those same questions way back in the day, it was kind of a fun opportunity for reflection. Right. When you sit down with a young architect, and they say those questions, and now it's your opportunity to be like, I remember how someone responded to me way back when. How am I going to respond to this person? You know, to give them the best information and the best again, push forward.
(Brian): Yeah. And we have a choice to make. If we weren't, you know, helped early in our career, we still have a choice to make. Am I willing to help the next person behind me? Exactly. And I think that's, that's really the key piece as you develop as a professional, is, hey, who's coming behind me? How can I help? Right. Even though you may not have been given the help early on in your career.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): You don't have to. To continue on that path. Break, break the mold and help someone else push us forward.
(Skyler): Absolutely, absolutely. Be the change you want to see.
(Brian): Exactly, exactly.
(Skyler): Awesome. Fantastic. So you've got, you know, these pairings, you've got a mentor, a mentee helping to lead that mentee down the path. You know, pushing them out of the nest, like you said, letting them spread their wings and do new things to help build them up. One thing that you had mentioned in sort of the overview for this episode was obviously, we want to review.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): You want to sit down with them and say, Let's look at how things went. Let's look at how we can do things forward. Successes, wins, losses, kind of things along those lines. And I know from your information that you had kind of come up with, you said there might be, maybe a way to shift away from sort of the traditional annual reviews and doing sort of more of a micro coaching. What is micro coaching? What does that mean?
(Brian): Yeah. So, to me, we really need to be cognizant of giving feedback really regularly. That makes sense at the time because if you even wait a week or two Weeks, the information has kind of started to stale, we'll say, and people have forgotten exactly what happened. But if you leave a meeting and you saw an opportunity to give some feedback in the car on the drive home, have the conversation, to me, that's micro coaching. It's giving the time at the time, giving the feedback at the time when it's needed, and not three, six, or nine months later. Absolutely. An annual review is not what it should be. Just a, hey, a recap of the year. Here's what happened. It's great. I see this, this, and this, what occurred in your year, and then, positioning for the next year. Right. So those feedback sessions, on a regular basis, if it's, you know, after a meeting, internally, externally, whatever it may be, or every couple of weeks, just have a quick check-in in five minutes is all you need to say. Hey, how can I help? What questions do you have? Yeah, hey, here's what I'm seeing. It doesn't take that much now. We get bogged down in daily life. Emails and phone calls, and project requirements. But if we're not slowing down to say, Hey, how can I help? How can I give that feedback that's just setting other people up for failure? To be there for them.
(Skyler): And again, Adam talked about this a lot in the mentoring podcast where he was working with the interns. He'd take them to, like, job sites and meetings. And usually, you know, we have projects that span out pretty far. So sometimes you're in the car for a little while. It's a perfect opportunity, driving back from that project, to say what you guys think. What questions do you have? You know, what did you, what did a client say that maybe you're like, what did that even mean? And he said, I mean, it was just a great opportunity every single time. The interns always had great questions. They were curious about things, and it was a great opportunity to learn. Yeah. So.
(Brian): And as the mentor, you should be potentially learning also from. Absolutely. Oh, yeah, I didn't think about it that way. I didn't see that detail, like, oh, yeah, you know, some of those two-way streets, as you said. Yeah, we need to be learning up and down for sure. It's not just one way.
(Skyler): So obviously we're trying to develop what's probably be referred to as a learning culture.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): Yeah, we want to develop that. And sometimes people might use training events. So, I mean, they're not necessarily at odds per se, but kind of what is the versus? What is it like one versus the other?
(Brian): Yeah, I think the day-to-day learning that we have on projects and working with clients, that's one style of learning. Okay. But the training events, let's say if it's a class that we're doing on Revit or we're doing on Excel, maybe, who knows, we've thought about a few things, or CMBAU even, those are more of a one-directional type of learning. Yes, there's maybe some opportunity for questions at the end, but you may not be comfortable asking those questions in the big group. So we need to have the day-to-day learning that we're doing supplemented by the bigger group learning as well. Because there are times when we need to get the message out to everyone. We need to have the direct conversation with everyone at one time and not just individually because it will never get, get the message out if it takes forever to get through the company.
(Skyler): We've got like 60-some employees.
(Brian): Yeah, yeah. Quite a while. Yeah. A lot of driving. But yeah, I think it's a variety of learning opportunities for people. and then being willing to learn every day. Right. Being open to learning every day. And, and that we talked about before we started here, you know, the, the, the History Channel stuff that we talk about. Right. I love learning every day, learning about why something happened back then and how it changed our lives. It's no different every day here. It's just the little tweaks and adjustments that we can make to make our clients' projects better, our work better, and the processes that we use better. just for a general, you know, better overall experience. So.
(Skyler): Absolutely! So another thing that you had mentioned, kind of going into this sort of specific look into ways that we can be mentoring people and developing people. Obviously, as the name of the episode you mentioned suggests, you have a lot of military background. Obviously, a lot. And you had mentioned what's known as ACE, which is the agile combat employment. Oh yeah, you mentioned how it can kind of create multi-capable teams. First of all, what is this? Because I don't have a military background, I'm really curious.
(Brian): Yeah. So, historically and it's shifted over time, but historically, and I'm going to speak from the Air Force perspective. I'm not in the Army; I'm not in the Marines. You know, we are trained in a certain job function, a job role. And that's called my AFSC Air Force Specialty Code.
(Skyler): Okay.
(Brian): I have a function that I'm trained in. And that's my role. That's my job. Well, what the Air Force is, learning and implementing is the ACE, the Agile Combat Employment, that methodology or that thought process is for airmen. If we are deployed somewhere, we may not have every specialty with us. Right. So we need to be agile to be able to do multiple job functions when needed. If something presents itself. If I need to work on a vehicle, but I am a personalist, which is someone in admin, can I do that? Right. Are there some basic things I need to learn to get that vehicle working? I mean, I'm taking an extreme example. Oh yeah, yeah. But that airman should be able to do some basic things with that piece of equipment to help get things moving. even if I'm just trained as a personalist or a cook for say, you know, those types of things. So here I would say we need to be well-versed in multiple facets of our job. We've got drawing design right up front. We've got the actual production documents that we put together. We have our specifications, we've got contracts, we've got a whole list of things, the CMBA curriculum that we cover. And we need to be well-versed in those so that if, let's say, a situation presents itself and your principal might not be right there, you at least have some knowledge of what's going on. You could at least use some of your skills to go, hey, I think it's going to be this. I need to maybe go back and check, but let's get this moving. If I have some knowledge. So we need to give some broadness to our education, knowing that we will kind of hone in on certain areas as we develop, if it's healthcare, education, or municipal, whatever, industrial, let's say. But there should be some broad knowledge that we're trying to get to, to others throughout the company.
(Skyler): And I think our CMBA, you really, it really goes with that idea. Yeah.
(Brian): That platform helps to kind of give that overarching view of how we want people to operate within CMBA. But general knowledge about the way in which we practice.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): Exactly.
(Skyler): And then for those listening, CMBAU is our sort of education platform, a series of classes that cover some of the broader topics within the company.
(Brian): Correct.
(Skyler): each led by one of the principals, and yeah. Sharing a lot of really great information so that we're all on the same page. We're all speaking the same language to a certain extent.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): So even those of us in the marketing department take it, and we get to see some of the design side, and you guys on the design side get to see a little bit in the marketing department or the finance department, so on.
(Brian): Exactly, exactly.
(Skyler): It's a really cool way to, like you said, broaden everybody's scope, at least for the basics, so that they have an understanding. And of course, we can work together a lot more efficiently because of that.
(Brian): Definitely, there's some commonality there if we have that. Absolutely.
(Skyler): And then we talked about the sort of broader topic, or broad skill set.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): Trying to help make sure everybody has those basics. What about when we want to look at the specialization? I know earlier you mentioned, you know, it can be kind of a job-by-job basis when we pinpoint these leaders and we want to kind of help, help them grow. How do we develop those people who have a kind of specialized set of skills? Not to sound like Liam Neeson from Taken or something.
(Brian): I have a certain set of skills. Yes. And I will find you. Yes. Yeah, I think, when as leaders we can see that someone has an innate sense that, hey, they're speaking the language, they understand it, they just really get it, then we need to look for opportunities to get them knowledge outside of CMBA. To me, if it's national conferences or specific educational events, as you mentioned before, that broadens that even more, gives them a depth that others may not get to in their career. You have to want that.
(Skyler): Yeah, I was going to say passion is going to be a key element.
(Brian): Absolutely. You have to want it. And we have some members for sure in our company who love healthcare or love K12 or love higher ed, for instance. So we have said, okay, we're willing to invest maybe a little bit more into, you know, traveling for conferences or bringing people in to develop that knowledge. So, it is a, it's an investment. Right? For the company. But for those projects that require that very detailed understanding, of let's say behavioral health environment, a good example, we don't do those every day, but we have some people that really understand how those get put together. Right. And they can speak it at the level of an owner can go, oh, yeah, he gets it, she gets it.
(Skyler): Right.
(Brian): That just creates a comfort level there for us to do the first project or the next 10 projects for that. Absolutely. So, it's an investment, but it will hopefully pay off in the end with projects that come in.
(Skyler): Absolutely, yeah. If I'm a very specialized client with a very specialized project, and someone comes in and they can speak that language with me, that's a huge bonus forward. I can trust that person absolutely.
(Brian): Exactly.
(Skyler): That makes a lot of sense. One of the last things that you had, or for us to mention, is succession planning. You had mentioned this before. You know, we see these leaders, and we think, hey, it's not just we want to have people that are really capable within the company, but somebody that can take over once I retire or whatever the case. What are we talking about when it comes to the idea of how to get them ready for that inevitable empty seat? I guess you could say that's a broad question.
(Brian): I think we need to push people to not just be one thing within the company. When you're talking about potential ownership of a company, you need to think about that a little differently. And we've said this to our principals. You have two hats that you wear. Sure. One is your day-to-day principal, head of projects and clients. And then you have another half of an owner of a company, and they aren't always aligned. Because as an owner, you've got expenses that you're worrying about, what the cost of things are and salaries, benefits, and all of that. And on this side, it's more project-based on the principal side, but that feeds the ability to pay for all of these things on the expense side.
So if we want someone to really be positioned for that in the future, we need to push them to be broad overall, not just one thing. Right now. Specialized knowledge will go a long way. Sure. But can we broaden it to have them understand the business side of that specialized knowledge a little bit? Like what's that investment into that, knowledge, let's say on the healthcare side of, hey, how does that business work for a hospital or healthcare organization? I think that changes your mind. If I'm not just solely working on a floor plan or a department layout, whatever it may be, but I'm really thinking about how they function as a business. That kind of puts you in a mindset of how our business might function as well. That broad need helps to develop people overall. Now again, back to the leadership piece. People have to want to trust and respect you as a leader, also. So that comes with servant leadership. Sure, yeah. Humbleness.
Being willing to take care of others before you. Not everybody's in that mindset. This is true. And as an owner, that's your first Thing is to take care of employees. They're your greatest asset. Absolutely. Your greatest asset. And if we're not doing that, if you're not showing that, then that's going to be a little more challenging for you to grow to a leadership level, an ownership level, we'll say.
(Skyler): Definitely an interesting situation where you have to be able to split your brain chunks in a sense, a little bit.
(Brian): Yeah.
(Skyler): Think very four-dimensionally.
(Brian): Right.
(Skyler): So, yeah, interesting, interesting. It's complicated for sure. But, obviously, yeah, like you said, raising up future leaders to take over those spots. It's, it's necessary if you want the firm to continue. And it's a lot easier, I would imagine, to hire in-house versus trying to bring in leaders or potential leaders and then show them everything that we do. It's like, well, we could have just had this guy who's been here for the last 10 years. He knows how things work. We can make him a leader.
(Brian): There are pros to bringing someone up from within. Absolutely. Because they have the knowledge set, they understand the culture, and they understand the processes. There are also pros on the other side of bringing someone from the outside in, because maybe we weren't doing it the way we should be doing it. And new thoughts. We need new perspectives.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): But yeah, that trust and respect for someone coming into the company takes time to build.
(Skyler): Exactly.
(Brian): Yeah. Now it can be won very quickly if you can show that I'm here for others and not myself.
(Skyler): Right.
(Brian): Through actions and being willing to jump right in and take care of something, and showing, hey, come alongside me. I'm not here to tell you what to do. I'm here to help you get there, and I'm here to show you how I can do it with you. That builds that trust and respect really quickly, but it's more difficult to do that from the outside. Right. So it just takes a little more time to do that. But yeah, internal, external, pros, cons, both sides. But either way, it's an investment to make sure people can truly understand who you are as a leader, what your motivations are, and how you can take care of them in the end, ultimately, so.
(Skyler): Awesome. Well, I think we covered just about everything on the list. I really appreciate it, Brian. Yeah, we also kind of delved into an interesting element, too, if we're talking about developing people from a leadership standpoint. Obviously, as I said, you as CEO and you've obviously worked with a lot of the people here, but I think you also touched on a really cool idea of how we can develop our mindsets to try to be those people that people want to see developed and see that potential inside of.
(Brian): Absolutely.
(Skyler): I know you've mentioned a couple of mindsets, you know. Right. Like have that listening, have that servant, mental mentality, things along those lines, that, you know, maybe if we think about it and us, we focus on that and really put forth some effort to change what we currently think to move towards those areas. Yeah.
(Brian): That will help position people very, very quickly.
(Skyler): Absolutely. Awesome. Well, thank you again, Brian. Really appreciate you taking the time out of your day to talk to us about developing people.
(Brian): All right, thanks, guys.
(Skyler): Awesome. Absolutely.
Narrator: If you'd like to find out more about the Laying the Foundation podcast, you can head over to any podcast streaming platform, such as Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, and others. You can also find out more about CMBA architects through social media, such as Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Additionally, you can head over to the CMBA website@cmbaarchitects.com. If you're an architecture or design professional or an intern looking for an internship within those fields, please be sure to check out our website and click on the Careers tab to find out more about what opportunities we offer. This has been another episode of the Laying the Foundation podcast. We'll see you next time.