In this episode of Laying the Foundation, we sit down with Jim Brisnehan, a principal architect at CMBA Architects and a member of the Nebraska Board of Engineers and Architects. Jim provides valuable insights into the role of the Board in regulating the practice of architecture and engineering in Nebraska. He discusses the licensing process, enforcement of standards, and the Board's commitment to public safety. Listen to learn more about the importance of professional licensure and how the Board contributes to the quality of engineering and architectural projects in the state.

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Episode Transcript

(Skyler): Welcome to another episode of Laying the Foundation. All right, welcome everybody to another episode of the Laying the Foundation podcast. My name is Skyler, and we are doing a special mini-series called Leading the Way, where I sit down with the various principals and leaders within our company at CMBA Architects and talk to them about either something they're passionate about, maybe a misconception within their field, and a variety of other interesting topics that we feel are beneficial to learn about from these professionals. So joining me today is Jim Brisnehan, who is our principal, one of our principal architects out in our Grand Island office. Jim, welcome to the show.

(Jim): Well, thank you for having me.

(Skyler): So, Jim, you talked about wanting your role within the NBEA, which is the Nebraska Board of Engineers and Architects. Can you explain the primary functions and responsibilities of the NBEA and what they do, who they are, and so on and so forth?

(Jim): Sure. The board's primary function... well, let me back up a second. The board is established by the state statute of the state of Nebraska. So we're governed to oversee basically everything that happens with engineers and architects for the state of Nebraska by state law. So from there, we as an organization, the Nebraska Board of Engineers and Architects, oversee the running of architects and engineers in the state: continuing education, or at least document continuing education, document experience the candidates may have, and continuing education that they get. And then we also get a record of the schools and the education that they have as a background. From there, we issue licenses. We continue to verify and audit the continuing education. And then in the cases that we have to, we discipline those folks that we might need to. So the state legislature makes the statutes, we make the rules for which we're going to abide, and then we uphold those.

(Skyler): So with that being said, how does the board ensure the licensed professionals meet those necessary requirements and standards in order to do their practices?

(Jim): Basically, what I kind of just touched on, the qualifications. We have a standard here in Nebraska, and all the states are somewhat similar. Some might be a little different. You need a certain level of education. And right now, the national boards are trying to take out the barriers that might be holding people back from getting licensure. So, years back, when I was taking the exam, we had to sit for the exam that was offered once a year. That's the way it was. Now you can sit for the exam at any point in time. You can even take the exam through during college, while you're getting your education. That doesn't... If you pass it, that doesn't necessarily mean you're an architect at that point. You still have to get the required hours in. Everything still has to be verified. So that process kind of looks like, and typically most people are going to get their education, you establish a transcript, you start to gain your hours. And those hours are registered with the National Council of Architectural Registration Boards, or NCARB for architects, and NCEES for engineers. And from there, you go through the process of gaining your hours. You can sit for your exams at any point in time. NCARB is the body that actually administers those tests. And then, when you pass those tests, those candidates who might be taking it that live in Nebraska will get a report that they've passed a certain section. And once they pass all of them, then we get the block that says, okay, so-and-so candidate has passed all of their exams. Mr. Board, it's now up to you guys to take a look at this. We get that file from them. We verify their education. So in Nebraska right now, you need, or it's easiest if you've got a professional degree, which in this case, if it's a master's degree from the University of Nebraska, you would have to have passed all the portions of the exam. And then you'd have to have your required hours of on-the-job experience.

(Jim): And then from there, if you've met all of those criteria, we, as the board, then turn around and send you the state statute for the state of Nebraska and all of our rules. That's a nice little book. And you get a little test to go with it that you now have to pass that says, I understand what it means to seal my documents and what I'm required to do in the state of Nebraska, the ethics that we have to do, and all the things that go with being a professional practice in the state of Nebraska. And once you pass that, we say congratulations, and we give you a license. And that's really the process that it kind of goes through. And that's for somebody new. Now, if somebody's already got a license in the state of Iowa, they're very similar to ours. We look at the same stuff. But if you've got theirs, you most likely have... Would pass ours. There are some territories where we don't necessarily agree on everything, but for the most part, we'll do... Some states are a little tougher than ours, where they make you go through more things. Illinois, California, and Texas are some of the ones that you might need to jump through different hoops that you don't here. But that's kind of the way it works for us. So you can get it by committee or reciprocity, or if you're a beginner, you're just getting it for the first time and can work through things that way.

(Skyler): Interesting. So out of curiosity, like, what are some of the violations that might come up or maybe challenges that the board kind of has to face as far as maintaining these sorts of rules and regulations and maintaining sort of the standard for architects and engineers?

(Jim): Oh, there are a lot of common violations right now, and I understand I've just been to one meeting and am doing this. But there again, as an architect, each quarter we get a newsletter, and it basically states, you know, these are the violations that we're seeing out here. A lot of them right now have to do with continuing education. And that's a fairly common pitfall because not everybody goes back and verifies what their transcripts say, because a lot of us are AIA or American Institute of Architects members. And they'll keep our transcripts for us and our continuing education logs. And then we just say, yeah, we've had so many hours, and if you're not careful and you don't verify that, when you renew, we check a little box and we have to, you know, take the oath that says, yes, we've done these. But then the board has a period after us, twice a year, that you can come in for getting renewed. So after that period, the board then has an audit period where they select however many candidates they want that go through, and they'll verify. Did these people actually get all their continuing education units in? And if they don't, then we send them a notice, and then we go through a process to get them back into compliance. Usually, you will tell them, "Hey, you've got 30 days to make it up. Are you going to make them up? Do we have to suspend your license because you have not done what you needed to do, and you didn't get the required units that you have to have, because part of the units are health, safety, and welfare." And that's really what the board is about is protecting the public health, safety, and welfare. So a lot of our continuing educations deal with health, safety, and welfare. We have to have an ethics course to go through. And then, and then there are various other learning objectives that architects and engineers can choose to go to make sure that they get the required number of hours that they're supposed to get. So that's a very common one. And that process depends on what the respondee is doing and how they go about getting back into compliance, which can go through various levels of importance and violation. We also have very common violations that come from owners and contractors who say, well, this was a small project, and I didn't know I needed an architect. It's very well written as to when you need an architect or not. And if you're not typically, the jurisdictions that would provide a building permit will not issue one. And at that point, they can file a complaint to the board that says, we've got documents that were not issued or not sealed correctly. And in that case, we then get involved. So our complaints can come from architects and engineers. It can come from city building officials, state fire marshal officials, general public that might have an issue with an architect or an engineer. And then through those, we'll send out letters, and we get information back if we need to. We then set up hearings. There's a whole process, everybody gets due process, that we go through. And that's how we kind of handle things. And the part that makes it even easier for us as a board is we've got architects on the board, we've got engineers on the board, and they practice in various disciplines. And then we've got public members that sit on the board just to watch things and say, you know, are they thinking rationally? Is this within the realm? Should John Q. Public be able to understand this? And throughout all of those, we all bring different experiences. And that's where we're all trying. We're all getting our information as we're going through things, and we're out there. And then we, as architects and or engineers, if we see a violation, we've got a duty to report, just as teachers or other professionals do as well. And that's where the ethics kind of come into things.

(Skyler): Absolutely. Kind of like a mandatory reporter.

(Jim): Mhm.

(Skyler): So you mentioned the focus on public safety and welfare. What are we trying... Or what is the NBEA trying to keep from happening? Like, what are situations that could happen if the NBEA were to miss a situation? To miss somebody who wasn't getting all of their education or all of their licensure or whatever the case may be?

(Jim): Oh, what are we trying to keep from happening? Number one, we don't want buildings to collapse, which is just kind of funny... not so funny. We just had a building in Hastings, near us, collapse yesterday, which was damaged by a fire. So it does happen. Even for our folks in Iowa, we just had floods come through. Well, water is very destructive. So, architects and engineers, and professionals go out to make sure these structures are safe for people to occupy? Because we regulate all engineers. Is there mold in the building? Is it structurally good? Are there other issues that might be there that would challenge things? We're involved with a very large area on all of that when it comes to those things. But more focused and more of our attention is just said, are people getting their continuing education? Are they practicing correctly and morally, and ethically the way they should? Trying to hold ourselves to a standard that's reasonable. So we look through all of those things and we try and find out, is it an educational issue, an issue that the public needs to know more information about? Is it something our members need more training on? And one of the things that I didn't realize as a board member is that being a part of our state board, we're now a part of national boards, which I guess I should have figured out, but we have a position on the National Council of Architectural Registration Board, NCARB, and we also have a position on the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying, NCEES. And that's where we try and get together and we really talk about how we govern, to bring some consistency as a nation and territories that we have, like the Virgin Islands and some of those, all together so that as we practice this one, everybody's got an understanding of what it is. Now we don't have to take all of the recommendations, but for the most part, we try to.

(Skyler): So, I mean, you already kind of started talking about it, which is the next question that I had, which is how does the board of the NBEA, how do they collaborate with professional organizations or industry stakeholders to better the process and policies that they enact and to keep up with any changing policies and necessities? Because obviously a lot of things are changing over time.

(Jim): Yes, we collaborate with a lot of different agencies and boards. Architecturally, we're going to collaborate with the American Institute of Architects. There are a couple of other smaller organizations because you don't have to be a member of the AIA to be a practicing architect. We get into, we like, say on a national level, we deal with NCARB.

(Jim): Landscape architects are a part of the board, so they bring their part to it. The engineering side of things, whether it's geology or electrical engineering, mechanical engineering, public engineering, all sorts of civil engineering, structural engineering. They bring a wide variety of organizations that they're a part of to the thing. And we're all looking out for the best interests of the public, really more so than, you know, trying to help my organization or where we fit into things. Even as we're making rules, we take our architect hat off often and those things and we really try and figure out what is best for the public, what makes it streamlined, what makes it easy to understand, where do the statutes give us and where do they draw the line as far as where we might need it, where we're not needed. We try and give guidance on that. Sometimes we'll ask for opinions from the attorney general and those things. Especially as Nebraska and Iowa have just recently been dealing with... Well, we've got a registered interior designer. Well, what does that mean? Well, we've got a practice law for architects and engineers. We've got a very voluntary place for interior designers. And yes, they can practice some architecture, but they can't practice all architecture. So right now we're really trying to have that conversation and say, okay, where's the line drawn and how does that work? Because we need to work together, and the problem right now is that they're governed differently than we are. So I think that there's just going to have to be a lot of conversations. It's a good thing that these registrations and stuff don't go into effect... practices don't go into effect for another year. We've got work to do to figure out where those lines are drawn. Just so we know if there's a complaint, who's dealing with the complaint, and where does that go? Because we don't need to be doing hearings on both sides and pointing fingers at each other. That doesn't do the public any good. So we have to come to a conclusion and write the rules, and then educate the public and our members, and their members, on what it means. And that can take up quite a bit of our time.

(Skyler): It's a very complex process that definitely requires a lot of people in a lot of different places to all be able to come together and to make things happen. So, definitely a lot of work on your guys' part. You've talked a lot about what NBEA does, obviously. So out of curiosity, how did you get on the board? Like, what was the process for actually achieving that board seat?

(Jim): Oh, the process, getting elected to the board... Well, that was an interesting one. I had been approached by colleagues over the past 10 years, saying, Jim, we think you'd be really good at this. And I considered it and said, well, you know, maybe... maybe it's not quite time yet. I'm not right. And then an opening came up, and they said, Jim, we really encouraged you to do this. So I talked to a couple of different members and said, okay, sure, I'll put my name in the hat. And from there, I fill out the form, it goes to the governor's office, and then it takes quite a while, and I'm assuming they had to do some checks and balances on me and find out, you know, who I am, what am I? How have I been doing? And then I got the call, and it... I got a letter from the governor saying, Jim, you've been appointed for the next five years. It's got a neat little seal on it. It's all official. And then I started getting the emails from all the different boards and saying, Congratulations, we've got to talk and get you on board, because there are things happening and we need your involvement. So it's been a real whirlwind for the past three weeks to a month as I've gotten engaged in the whole process and found out what this all means. It should be fun. I take it as an honor to be selected, but with that comes great responsibility.

(Skyler): Yes, that's right, Uncle Ben. Great... With great power comes great responsibility. That's absolutely right. So can you tell us, to those that are listening that want to find out more about the NBEA, and obviously, you know, obviously, we all need to be educated. As you've mentioned before, there are policies in place. Maybe somebody out there is where they aren't where they need to be or

(Skyler): They want to find out more information about how they can get to where they need to be. Could you give me a little bit of a rundown on how they can find out about it?

(Jim): Well, there are always ways. I mean, needless to say, we just like everybody else, we've got a LinkedIn page and a Facebook page, so you can find us there. Realistically, go on the web and just type in "architect board" will come up, or "engineering board," same thing. From there, it takes you to our state website, which tells you all the information. You can ask questions; you can find out things. It's got a whole table that tells you if you need an architect, here's when you do, here's when you don't, and an area to contact phone numbers, even us as members of the board, our telephone number, our email is published so people can get a hold of us as they need to. And it's really out there for us to promote and make sure that our members understand. I guess we're here for the public, but we're also here to help keep our members in line and really educate them as to what we should be doing and how we should be doing it. So as I said, every architect that's registered in the state gets a newsletter. Once a year, they get an updated copy of the statutes, which really don't change that much. It will... As we define the interior design process, there will probably be several more sections added that will bring definition to that. And that's, I guess, that's really how we're out there. And we get to know more than anything through those means. If people go and talk to a state official or a city building inspector, they can then have that conversation. Because if something happens and they go back to the building inspector and say, you know, where should I go with this? They'll point them in our direction. If there are things that they find, they'll point them in our direction. We've got staff on the board that go out to the state fire marshal's office and to local jurisdictions, and they're always checking drawings and specifications and everything else to see that they're in compliance. So we do spot checks all over the state all the time. We've got several complaints, or at least a couple of compliance officers who do that. And then from there, yes, we're holding hearings, we're writing letters, emails back and forth. We really want to bring people into compliance. We don't want to have to discipline if we don't have to. So our first goal is to say, we need you to do this for us. Sometimes they will, sometimes they don't. If they don't, we've got processes that are followed, and we lay those out ahead of time. So, you know, if we prefer you do this, but if you don't, you've got the opportunity for X, Y, and Z, and it's up to you to decide how you wish to accomplish this. But there we get questions from the public, and we even got a question the other day from a fire marshal who had classified a building differently than we would have. And the owner and their design professional asked for our opinion on this, and we actually found in their favor and said, you know, we agree with you. This should be the occupancy. We agree with the way that you're looking at it. So our recommendation went back to the fire marshal, and we'll see where that one goes. So we're not always bad guys. We're really trying to be consistent and fair and make sure everybody understands the ground rules and that we're all doing things the same way or within reason.

(Skyler): Absolutely. Trying to make sure that everybody is following the same rules, so we don't have crazy business, like you mentioned earlier, crazy buildings getting built all over the place that don't follow regulations and so on and so forth. So, Jim, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast, and huge congratulations on your seat on the board for the NBEA. I completely agree. It's a huge honor, and it's super exciting to have somebody within our organization who is on this board and making sure that these policies are followed. It's a huge benefit, obviously, to the community and all of the state of Nebraska to have people like you keeping an eye on the industry and bettering the industry in the process. I think that's really awesome, we all appreciate it.

(Jim): Thank you.

(Skyler): Absolutely. This has been another episode of Laying the Foundation. This has been one of our Leading the Way podcast episodes. I want to thank everybody for tuning in, and we will see you all next time. If you'd like to find out more about the Laying the Foundation podcast, you can head over to any podcast streaming platform, such as Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, and others. You can also find out more about CMBA Architects through social media such as Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Additionally, you can head over to the CMBA website at CMBAarchitects.com. If you're an architecture or design professional or an intern looking for an internship within those fields, please be sure to check out our website and click on the Careers tab to find out more about what opportunities we offer. This has been another episode of the Laying the Foundation podcast. We'll see you next time.