In this episode of Laying the Foundation Podcast, we dive into the world of special needs education with a unique perspective. Joining us are architect Eric Coleman and his wife, teacher Mary Jo Coleman. Together, they offer invaluable insights into designing and teaching in spaces tailored for students with special needs. From addressing common misconceptions to exploring innovative design solutions, this episode provides a comprehensive look at creating inclusive and effective learning environments.
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Episode Transcript
Skyler: Welcome to another episode of laying the foundation.
Skyler: All right, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the laying the foundation podcast. I'm your host Skylar back again. And today I've got two very special guests with me, Eric again, from our awesome architecture team here at the Sioux city office and joining us. Definitely for the first time.
Mary Jo: Yes.
Skyler: Is Mary Jo.
Skyler: Mary Jo, welcome to the show.
Mary Jo: Hi.
Skyler: Uh, Mary Jo, you are a teacher here in town.
Mary Jo: Yes, at Sargent Bluff. Sargent
Skyler: Bluff. Awesome. Very good. And then what grade do you specifically teach?
Mary Jo: So I teach K through fifth grade. Um, I run a self contained program focusing on social emotional learning. Awesome. And behavior supports.
Mary Jo: Perfect.
Skyler: Perfect. And you are here as our teaching resident expert because today we're going to be talking about. Putting together these classroom spaces for kids with special needs. So we're going to be talking about designing and, uh, sort of the spaces that we use for kids with special needs in the classrooms.
Skyler: So that's what we're going to be talking about today. And I'm super excited because we have Eric from the design side, from the architectural side, and then Mary Jo you're here for sort of the teaching, the hands on you, I mean, you see these spaces and obviously you teach these kids like every day. So you, again, expert on.
Skyler: Right? Like where do we need to go with these sort of classrooms? So I guess just for a little bit of of Sort of background concept and, and such like that. Can you tell us a little bit about the classroom spaces and some of the special needs that you come across, um, as far as, uh, what you do within, within your teaching?
Mary Jo: Yes. So what I do, I run a self contained program when students start with me, they are in my classroom all day, every day, and then we hopefully start reintegrating them back out into the general ed setting. Um, so we have. I range from kindergarten through fifth graders, so I could have. a wide range of students and their individual needs.
Mary Jo: And this year I have a group of third graders and a group of fourth graders. I, and then there's a chance I'm going to have some kindergartners. Awesome. So I have a wide range and then I also have adults, some paraprofessionals that work with me. So, um, looking at the makeup of my room this year, there'll be Seven, seven students and four adults in my classroom.
Skyler: Okay. Awesome. And you've got, I mean, things are coming up to the school year where, but when we post this episode, it'll be a little bit different, but the 2024. School year is about to start, right? Is that what it would be? Yes. 2024. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Um, so that's about to start here soon Which is really exciting.
Skyler: I'm sure you've already probably been over to the classroom. Many hours have already been put in. No, that's fantastic. So, um to kind of like kick things off. Are there any like misconceptions about these spaces? Um, or, or the special needs of students that we need to like kind of get, um, into to make sure that when we go forward with this discussion, you know, we, we have that stuff in mind.
Mary Jo: Kind of one of the big things that, uh, I spoke with a colleague of mine who runs a self contained program also, and one of the big things that we talked about is a misconception that is often thought about that resource rooms and self contained programs like mine, just because I only have seven students on my roster.
Mary Jo: People tend to think I don't need as much space as a general ed classroom would, that has the 28 kids. But like I said, I have a range of students from kindergarten to fifth grade. I have flat four adults. We need just as much space as a full classroom. And so we tend to have to get pretty creative, how to make space in a very small classroom, kind of making do with what we have.
Mary Jo: Yeah. But definitely more space is definitely one of those big misconceptions
Skyler: for us. That, you know, fewer students means you don't need as much room, but obviously not the case. So along with that challenge, are there any other challenges that you kind of come across when it comes to these self contained classroom situations?
Mary Jo: Um, some of the other things we kind of talked about is for us, Each of our students have a variety of needs and we could get a student added to us at the drop of a hat. A student moves into district and we have to service the student. Sure. There's not always warning to it. And each of these students have so many different needs that they might need a very small space.
Mary Jo: They might need very, a very structured space. And so for us, Flexibility is something that we need to be able to handle. There's so many times where I find myself just sitting in my classroom, like just looking, like, how can I build a wall? How can I add some form of a wall within my classroom so that these students have.
Mary Jo: a very structured space for them. Um, so we end up buying a lot of things like partitions. Eric got to haul in a very heavy shelf for me that I bought off Marketplace because I wanted a very defined space for one of my small groups. Yeah. So it's, uh, While I like space, the elements within the classroom need to be very flexible and very moving so that if all of a sudden I get a student who might be an eloper, who tends to like to run out of the room, how do I build a barrier so that, you I can slow him down a tad bit, and so he wants to stay in my room, and things like that, or how do I build a space so students can safely get to a break area without hurting others, and how can I get them their privacy and preserve their dignity as much as possible within my small classroom.
Skyler: Right, right, because like sometimes someone just needs some kind of alone space, some time to kind of sit down and, you know, Calm down or whatever the case and it is hard to do that when you've only got one classroom to work with.
Mary Jo: It's very hard. Yes, and building them that space. You get creative. Yeah, you gotta.
Mary Jo: You get creative.
Skyler: I would imagine it's the only way, but that's why we have experts like you. Um, Eric, so jumping over to you with these, these spaces that we have seen, because I know you work a lot within our K 12 sectors. What, what can we do as designers whenever we get approached by these schools saying, Hey, you know, we're redesigning this space or redesigning the section of our, our school.
Skyler: How can we better build out these spaces or what kind of features can we make sure that we include in order to make them a little bit more flexible, um, or help, help with the, the issues that the teachers are dealing with?
Eric: Yeah. I think the, the, the biggest thing that I think is often overlooked is having just that high level discussion with the district of how do, what is their approach for special education within, with students?
Eric: Mm-Hmm. , uh, Mary Jo talked about, you know, she's a self-contained room. Mm-Hmm. . But I think we see a lot of districts where they don't have a self-contained program where they're really pushing out into the classroom. And I think that's great. And I think sometimes there's maybe a little bit of a disconnect from maybe the administration level of a school district and their actual, actual special education staff.
Eric: And the district may think they do this, but the special education staff, because they really are their own realm and operations within a school, they do this. And those are going to be two totally different directions that, uh, even in a new school or renovation of how that those special ed spaces can be designed and actually implemented.
Eric: So the first step is understanding what's the type of, uh, special education program that the district has. And then from there, you can start to understand how do you support it through the new project. Um, and I also say bringing the special education staff to the tables early on in the process is the best thing that can be done because again, they're in that space day to day, they know the needs of the space and I think historically we see that.
Eric: Um, special education when it comes to designating a space within a school, it's often kind of the last piece that's Really thought about it. So, oh, we need a four section, uh, school K through five and we get all the classrooms laid out and then, oh, we, we didn't plan for special education here, but at that point in time, we don't have enough space to dedicate another classroom.
Eric: So it often becomes, well, maybe they can work in a half classroom and then that half classroom becomes maybe two smaller rooms or. Uh, in some districts where there is that emphasis on, you know, no, we do need to give them a full classroom. So we figure out how we can make square footages work within our costs and our budgets.
Eric: But it, it really should be, in my opinion, the other way around with, you know, if the ultimate goal is to get those students back into the traditional classroom, how do we support that with the spaces that are being used to give them the supports to do that? And can special education spaces be maybe the primary or secondary focus?
Eric: Within that preliminary layout and organization of a school so that they can be maybe more integrated, still providing them privacy. But get them more into where all of their peers are on a day to day basis. So they're not just going to the forgotten room or the last room in a corner of a building that takes way too long to get to.
Eric: And then the other thing is, I think, you know, just within the spaces themselves, you know, Mary Jo mentioned having lots of flexibility. I think a lot of that comes down to the furniture that's selected for these types of spaces. And I've seen this a lot with, um, you know, the furniture selection with schools where you spend, there's a lot of time spent on, okay, here's what each classroom is going to have.
Eric: And here's what, what like the commons are going to have and whatnot, but there's often unknown of what type of furniture is really needed in a special education classroom. But having that special education staff in that conversation regarding furniture, I think is, is something that's often missed.
Eric: Because as Mary Jo mentioned, it's, it's not your traditional furniture that would be in a special ed classroom, it's, it's how do you create those moments and little spaces for so many different needs of a kid that could change even throughout the day for that one kid. And then as Mary Jo mentioned that, you know, if a kid moves into the district or another kid is, um, you know, identified and needs to then get the services that does the square footage of her room doesn't change because three more kids now come into her, her classroom next week.
Eric: But now she's got to figure out how to get three more kids into that room. I would maybe already have six kids in it. Um, so, you know, Creating a space that is large enough that can handle flexibility within the elements that are then brought into the room. I think some of the other things that we're finding too is, you know, finding ways to give the staff of the special ed spaces Control.
Eric: Oh, okay. But also giving the students some control Sure. As well. And we've, I, we've identified that with, um, you know, lighting within spaces. Okay. So it's not just your traditional classroom lights. And I know lights have come a long way, especially in a general classroom standpoint. Um, but we've also found in, um, you know, like seclusion rooms or calm rooms or, uh, other types of rooms like that.
Eric: Even the color of light. Can have a huge impact on, um, you know, the, the students that are there. And, um, we recently completed a, a special education area at M-M-C-R-U where we, we included actually in a sensory gym Oh, and the adjacent calm room and sensor, uh, seclusion room. The ability to control the color of the light.
Eric: And those are actually able to be programmed or preset to the particular student. So if you have, you know, Johnny, who, you know, maybe he has some, some pretty significant behaviors and you see him start to escalate and he responds really well to the color green shirt. You can have a preset for Johnny.
Eric: And when you go to, you know, you try to get them into the call room first, And you can have the lighting preset already to green. So when he goes into the room, the lights green and to help him deescalate faster without having to get to the last resort of putting him in those seclusion rooms. Right, right.
Eric: So, you know, using the technology and just some of the traditional infrastructure that we're going to need to put in a room anyways, you know, using it to, you know, Better tailored towards the needs of those students, which, you know, they're very similar to a traditional student, but it's just that little extra, you know, thought that we can put into a space just to help alleviate some of those potential situations with a student escalating because I think Mary Jo, you found when, you know, when one student starts to escalate.
Eric: It becomes a challenge to make sure that some of the other students also don't start to escalate. Absolutely.
Skyler: So Mary Jo and Eric, you covered a lot of good points there. Um, I want to jump back to, you were talking about like furniture and some of the classroom design features that have kind of benefited the classroom as a whole.
Skyler: Um, Mary Jo, is there, is there specific things that you've seen that have kind of. Um, been really beneficial or elements that you feel like really work well, um, in your experience.
Mary Jo: Um, some of my favorite things are movable walls, um, for both student dignity and their safety. So, you know, we have seclusion rooms, we have calming rooms, but sometimes the student just has a really tough time right in the middle of the classroom.
Mary Jo: And it's, and having just, you know, a four foot high movable wall that I can kind of just. slide and just kind of give him a few moments of just you're gonna just hang out in here for a few seconds and just Kind of almost build that sensory room around him. That's one big thing. I really love to have
Skyler: Sometimes it's a lot easier to move the room than it is to move the student.
Mary Jo: Exactly. And I could, you know, no one can see him at that point, you know, and then I could just kind of, I I'm six foot, so I can kind of peek over and I can be, Hey, like, what can I bring to you right now? And they can say, and I can bring stuff to them. And then when they hop up and like, all right, where are we going?
Mary Jo: You know, things like that. Um, other, I love kidney shaped tables. I have, I actually have not had a Traditional teacher desk in my classroom since I think my second year of teaching. I just have kidney tables Sure. I have three now in my classrooms one for our different learning areas and Is there a reason why you prefer the kidney table?
Mary Jo: Um, I like the kidney tables because it allows me to kind of get close to the kids and they're all really Right within arm's reach of me. Yeah. I add little things to it, like we have strips of tape so that there's very clear borders for the students as to this is my defined space. Yes. Um, just little things where I can make very clear boundaries for my students.
Mary Jo: Uh, my old classroom, I had carpeted floor versus this new one I have tile. Okay. I would go back to carpet and a heartbeat, and that's because I was able to buy Velcro strips. For the student for an, I could make a box around some desk and the students knew this was my space. So if a piece of paper fell on the floor, I could be like, it's in your green square, please pick it up.
Mary Jo: And it was boom, right there. There was no, you know, question about it. So I was able to really make, I don't know, it was just a little preference of mine on the carpet floor. And I think there's probably some architecture that Eric could go into about how carpet is. Help soft and sound and stuff like that too, versus hard tile floor, but you know, I just, and I think carpet is more welcoming.
Mary Jo: Oh, absolutely. You know, it's, it's safer, right? And I think that also
Skyler: goes to the kidney tables too. No sharp corners. Yes.
Mary Jo: Um, right now I have, I, my classroom right now is actually an old, uh, Science room. Okay. So I have this huge island that's permanent in the front of my room and it just it's so Obstructive and it just it's a waste of space.
Mary Jo: Yeah, I cannot use it for anything where I would I like movable things I'd like to be able to control my environment, right? So I'd rather I I wish I could bulldoze that And get some shelves or something There's something there that I can move around, things like that. Eric,
Skyler: you need to call the school and tell them that we need to redesign these classrooms.
Skyler: Oh my goodness.
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Skyler: To learn more about our available positions, visit the careers page at CMBAArchitects. com and apply to join the CMBA team. Awesome. All right. Well, fantastic. Eric, you mentioned about the technology as well. What about technology? Is there, you mentioned the lights, which is a really cool, cool feature.
Skyler: Are there other things that we see that are kind of coming into the classroom that, um, maybe from an architectural standpoint, Is something that we should, we should kind of keep in mind while we're designing these spaces to say, Hey, let's make sure that we have a way to integrate this. And then I guess for Mary Jo, what, what technology are we kind of seeing?
Skyler: I know that's kind of a split.
Eric: Yeah. I think a lot of that comes down to, you know, what's the district's stance on how is technology integrated into a classroom. Right. But I think that needs to be taken further of a traditional general classroom and your special education classroom. Uh, because, you know, Mary Jo mentioned that, you know, she has students from kindergarten through fifth grade.
Eric: They're going to be using technology different at each one of those grade levels. Absolutely. And if her role is to be able to facilitate at each of the different grade levels, does her classroom have the capability of supporting that?
Mary Jo: Yeah.
Eric: Does she have the technology that a fifth grade classroom would have?
Eric: Does she have the technology that a kindergarten classroom has? Right.
Mary Jo: Yeah. Yeah.
Eric: And if there's, if she doesn't. Is she able to provide what the kindergartner is needing with all of the kindergarten classrooms?
Mary Jo: Right.
Eric: If she can't, if she doesn't have the stuff that the kindergarten classrooms have.
Eric: Exactly. Um, and obviously she's not teaching 20 kindergartners at a time. She's teaching one, but a lot of times, you know, the lesson plans are the same, the resources are the same. Does she have the space for those in her classroom to be able to provide those supports? Right. Um, and we see technology evolving, um, uh, you know, some districts are now becoming incredibly mobile with that technology and not having fixed TVs or projection screens there.
Eric: Whatnot on the walls, and it's something like, Hey, if you need a a huge screen, we'll roll it in on a cart. Kind of going back to,
Mary Jo: you know,
Eric: growing up when a, when a tv, one of the huge, um, I don't know what the, the tube TVs came on a cart like Oh yes. Movie day kind of thing. I remember that. Yeah, absolutely.
Eric: Um, you know, districts are going like that because they're recognizing that, you know, not every class needs to have a huge TV and we don't need to dedicate. Or fix a TV to a wall when that wall space is valuable learning space Whether it's whiteboards or attack surfaces like yeah, that's that's the teaching surface not the technology the technology Enhances the teaching.
Mary Jo: Yeah,
Eric: um, so in terms of you know, mary jo mentioned flexibility of the room Not having a dedicated four by eight area of a wall for technology could be incredibly valuable for that type of space. Yeah. Um, and then, you know, some of the other things with the classroom environment itself. Um, you know, just the, you know, we, we talk about how the space can be set up flexible and we also know it needs to be durable, right?
Eric: It needs to be able to respond to students who have this, the, you know, maybe behaviors. So maybe things, uh, need to be constructed a little differently, whether to be more durable from an impact standpoint. Or to provide protection and safety for the students. Um, Mary Jo mentioned, you know, carpet and we all know that carpet provides incredible acoustic value to a space.
Eric: But we also need to maybe think through it's a different type of carpet because that carpet may need to be cleaned a lot more frequently than
Skyler: traditional
Eric: carpets. So we've often started to see, You know, a kinetics type of, uh, carpet, uh, installed in those types of spaces where it's still super comfortable to sit on because I think kids are going to spend a lot of time on the ground.
Eric: But then it also, uh, water or spills just be down the top of it. That can be just wiped off.
Mary Jo: Yes.
Eric: So it's, you know, choosing materials that are, you know, really supporting just the activities that go in those spaces. that go beyond just the technology side of things. Right.
Skyler: And it also goes back to what you were saying earlier of why this needs to be such like a first priority or secondary priority for the school when they're doing these designs, because they're going to need to implement these different, um, materials.
Skyler: That are going to go into these spaces for the purposes that you've said for sure. So awesome. Awesome. And then Mary Jo, uh, what other kind of jumping back, what other technologies or I guess, elements of a room do you feel like are important for people to be thinking about?
Mary Jo: Eric was kind of talking about how.
Mary Jo: Resource rooms are often put last on the design where when I was talking to my colleague, we both kind of talked about like our dream location. If any, like if people were to ask us where in a building would you like your area set up? Okay. And this is, It kind of sounds crazy because Pete, like Eric talked about from his point of view, like how can we get them as integrated back as possible?
Mary Jo: How can we get them back there? But the, especially our students, not thinking the resource students that are just coming out for reading, for math, Writing. I'm thinking like through my kids and my colleagues kids who they sometimes have really big behaviors and they sometimes have a really hard time regulating themselves.
Mary Jo: And so they'll have loud noises, they're gonna hit things. And so we talked about how if we got to place our classroom and the quiet room anywhere in the building, we would do it in a corner somewhere. Okay. And so that would be, um. far away so that when our students have hard times, the other students can't hear them.
Mary Jo: Right, right. And I saw this come into play when I first, my very first classroom as, uh, in the role that I'm in, my classroom was placed in the kindergarten first grade hall with my quiet room right on the corner. So all the kindergartners and first graders would walk past. And then the whole school, when they ate lunch, we're sitting right there.
Mary Jo: So if any of my friends had a big behavior and they are hitting the wall, and as we're working to deescalate them as safely as possible. The whole school could hear them versus when I moved to my second classroom, we were down this long hallway and they, they, the quiet room is in the corner to the outside of the building.
Mary Jo: And so when they had those moments, nobody knew what was happening about it. What the greatest thing was I saw the difference in recess time or when we were out in the classroom because at the first location, everyone was scared of my students because they just heard these big loud noises coming from my classroom versus these kids that nobody saw have their, their hard times, never didn't see them going through these big emotions when they went out to recess, when they were calm, cool and collected, They were just a regular kid and people were asking them to come play with them and they were asking to spend time with them.
Mary Jo: And so these kids, my own students were, they were just like, people want to spend time with me because the kids didn't know. So it helped preserve their dignity and really just help them see that they were more than just that tough few moments that they had. So we talked about how, if that would be one of our greatest wishes of, of If we were brought into the conversation of like, let's place these key elements away from kids.
Mary Jo: Right, right, right. Almost so that when they do come out, when we do get them integrated, Yeah. You're just seeing them shine. And you're just seeing like all that hard work they've put into learning how to regulate themselves and learning how to be part of their, that's all the other kids see. Sure. And there's, they get to love up on them like that.
Mary Jo: And then another big thing that we talked about were bathrooms and making sure that our classrooms have access to a private bathroom. Got
Skyler: it. Okay.
Mary Jo: Um, my colleague, she's talked about how she has had to make a bathroom, like a makeshift bathroom within her own classroom with a four foot wall. Because, you know, we've had to shut down full grade bathrooms just so one of her students could have some privacy because he required help with bathroom changes.
Mary Jo: Um, just things like that of making sure we have, like, just those little things of how do we get the student to a private bathroom. So if he needs that help, we're not. Drawing big attention to it. So
Skyler: I guess, uh, one of my, one of my last questions that I have is about sort of going off of that with the bathrooms and stuff, communal spaces, gyms and libraries and things like that.
Skyler: What, I mean, what situations are we, yours is a very self contained program. Eric, I know you mentioned that some schools, they do it a little bit less. Kind of contained per se. How are we dealing with the idea of, because as you've mentioned before, we want to get these students eventually kind of integrated into the rest of the school and in classrooms.
Skyler: How do we deal with these situations where we'll have these communal spaces that, like, we can't build a whole separate gym space for the program for the special needs kit. So how do we kind of deal with that?
Mary Jo: I think it just, I mean, it's just all the little things that That just making sure the hallway is large enough that if a student, the wheelchair needs to wheel down another, the other row can be going the other way, you know, I don't really think there's a lot of concerns or issues that I've ever run into with those big communal spaces other than just little moments like that of if you're designing the library, Are the aisles for the books wide enough that a wheelchair can get through or that somebody needing a walker needs to get through just little things like that,
Skyler: accessibility, accessibility, right?
Mary Jo: Because that's where as the teacher, we come into practice, our social skills is making sure a student is successful out there. So if the environment is built. I don't want to say large enough, but large enough for them to get there with that support that they need, they can handle it. And so, they're going to bring, you know, if a student doesn't like loud noises, we're going to come with headphones.
Mary Jo: We're going to come with all those things that really, that's for our job to consider. But if you've thought through the element of, okay, Where is the student going to sit? Or, you know, just those little things that you've talked through that that's more Eric's wheelhouse of thinking through things, I'm going to come with my headphones.
Mary Jo: He's come through and created the space. That's. Large enough that that kid is able to be there.
Skyler: Yeah, absolutely. And that's, that's why I was so excited to get both of you in on this podcast was the fact that, you know, you've got, you know what they need and you know what things to make sure to think about.
Skyler: And then Eric, you're designing the spaces and obviously you want to get that feedback to kind of understand how to best make the space to be accessible, to be Um, something that these these students can use. Um, so I guess my, my final question goes out to both of you guys. Um, Eric, from an architect's standpoint, and then Mary Jo from the teacher standpoint, what advice would you to give, sorry, what advice would you give to architects and designers when it comes to designing spaces for special, like what would be like kind of an overview statement of.
Skyler: When you're going into K 12 design, please keep this in mind or please think about this.
Eric: My advice would be don't be afraid to ask the questions. And I know special education in schools is often a topic that most people don't have a lot of knowledge about.
Skyler: Yeah.
Eric: And, you know, we as architects, we try not to do it, but we make a lot of general assumptions, especially early on in projects.
Eric: Right. Just because, you know, we're trying to meet a lot of deadlines and figure out how we, you know, get something on paper real quick to get through all of the process. And sometimes those very first things that we put on paper become reality. Not because that's what ultimately gets built, but that's the first thing that's often seen.
Eric: And usually first things that are seen are the things that everyone holds things to. So if we're not careful in what we first show a school district for, Hey, we laid out the space and here's what we had for special education. Unless there's a conversation on it, we're making assumptions on this is where it wants to be, this is the size it should be, and that's sometimes the end of the discussion.
Eric: Right. Until now, when we finally have a real discussion, it's sometimes too late to to really make the meaningful changes like Mary Jo just talked through.
Mary Jo: Yeah.
Eric: So I think the the questions regarding the special education in the school are One of the first questions that should be asked just when, hey, talk to me about this with your school and how the education side of it and how does special education fit within that realm to get it in the right location of the school, but then understanding what type of special education program the district has so that, you know, like, if you're a self contained program, like Mary Jo runs, Hey, there's a decent amount of space that's required for this type of area.
Eric: Let's make sure we plan that and not just have it be the, Oh, sorry, this is the best that we could do. And now the function of that space doesn't work. And so we're already, she's already starting off one rung down in the type of space that she needs to, to have to be successful. And that just is a further detriment to some of those kids.
Skyler: I mean, you guys work so much within, you know, this, uh, there's like a standard to things or there's code and things like that. And like that we got to design within that. But sometimes we've, we've seen this probably quite often is that, you know, a lot of those codes and a lot of those standards that were put together might not have accounted for kids with special needs and some of the very diverse special needs that they might have.
Skyler: So obviously, like you said, asking those questions and saying, okay, well, this is code. This is what is required. How can we expand upon it? To make sure that we get to that point where it works for everybody.
Eric: Yeah. And I, and I think, you know, here we're hearing from Mary Jo too. I think it's important that, you know, a lot of times we see, Oh, this is going to be the special education area and we, 2, 000 square feet for it.
Eric: Without really considering that, well, maybe, you know, if they have three classes, that should be three full classrooms, maybe two full classrooms, you know, depending on the makeup of everything. But in general, that's just the classroom space. There's other support spaces that are also needed for those areas.
Eric: Uh, but at the very forefront of that late master plan or laying out that design, if only 3, 000 square feet are dedicated for what needs to be 5, 000 square feet. Now you're going to start running into some real challenges, especially if the, Hey, we really need to have a bathroom, whether it's off of each classroom or off of like within the special education area, or, you know, we're seeing a lot of schools starting to put in sensory gyms, uh, for those students that those take up square footage.
Eric: Cause those are designed to have kids be able to move around. And those are often seen as, uh, you know, maybe that square footage isn't needed. Uh, when ultimately, you know, budgets or square footage need to be reconciled. Right. But those are incredibly effective spaces for these types of students that, uh, you know, the longterm outlook of having a space like that sometimes is incredibly important than the short term of, uh, we really need to cut something from somewhere and that's a space that gets removed.
Eric: Absolutely.
Skyler: Yeah. Really, really thinking ahead on that one and recognizing the needs. And not just being like, Oh yeah, I forgot. We got to add something to that to make sure that it works. So, all right, Mary Jo, what would you want to say to architects and designers who might be designing these spaces?
Mary Jo: I will.
Mary Jo: I love that Eric said like communication, like just come talk to us, come spend time in our classrooms. You know, if, if. I ever got the opportunity for Eric to design my school someday, you know, if I ever got that, the very first thing I'd be like, you're going to come spend a day with me and you're going to buckle up and join me for my ride.
Mary Jo: You're going to see, you know, I would any, but I would invite him in, in a heartbeat to just come sit and watch and see how My little world functions for a day. You know, I would love that. And so, and I'm sure almost any teacher that you are collaborating with and design with, we just, anyone would be willing for any architect to step in and be like, just, can I come see what you're using and how you're using it and where you're at?
Mary Jo: Like. I, I think you would more, I think you'd be hard to find a teacher to be like, no, I don't want you to see what I do. I think, I think every teacher would be like, yes, I have a chair for you right here. Please come join me and just see for a day for half a day. How. Our little world functions and I think it would be very eye opening to almost anybody who doesn't live the day to day world of being a teacher, you know, and I've seen the buildings Eric designs.
Mary Jo: He creates beautiful buildings and. I would love for him to do it for me someday. But, you know, I also know he's never spent a day in my world that, you know, that he might come up with some pretty cool new ideas of how he could really enhance his designing of like, Oh, okay. You know, I think he would really, it could really take him a step further.
Mary Jo: And just any architect of go have that conversation, sit down, spend some time with them and just see. Oh, this is why she says that this is why they're saying those things of, we don't want, it might sound crazy of like, well, I don't want any permanent cabinets on my walls. Why? You need storage. Well, once you see my world, you'll see why I think things will move.
Mary Jo: You'll figure it out pretty quick. It might just kind of explain it if you see it. So that's what I would say. Just say it. Have that communication and really just come see the world as you're trying to enhance it. 'cause I know that's your guys' job. You're taking what we have. Exactly. Like how can I bring it into, how can I make it better for you?
Mary Jo: And I think the best way to do it is to work together and really have that conversation.
Skyler: Absolutely. It's, yeah. If you're an architect and a designer who's passionate about what they're doing, I mean, research is such a key aspect of it. And what better research than to get kind of a hands on first, first point of view, look of what you will be designing and how to best design it.
Skyler: And I think that's really great, Eric. I know you're very passionate about your design. Um, the Goodwill project, which was a previous episode, you know, you had some, some amazing ideas, um, and that was actually designed for people with special needs as well. So that was really great. And I'm sure, you know, you're working with Bridget, uh, got a really great insight on some of that stuff.
Skyler: I know, you know, Lee talks a lot about our K 12 stuff and I've seen, you know, him talk about a lot of the research that they do of just like those. Those weird things that you never think about like the lightings and you know, Some of the the materials that are being used that help in certain ways So it yeah if the teachers are going to be this passionate they're going to want you in the classroom they're going to want you to see it and I know you are I know your colleague is because That's the kind of thing that people who are passionate talk about is like well What would be our ideal classroom and things like that?
Skyler: Like that's the stuff that you guys are thinking about And so yeah to be able to invite the architect in and and get that first hand experience would be You Like the ideal situation to try to, to get that moving in the perfect direction. So,
Eric: and then she's secretly doing that too. So she can go to the bathroom.
Eric: All right. Watch the kids for a second.
Skyler: Awesome. Well, seriously, thank you both for sitting down and talking. I know this is going to be, again, invaluable for any architect, any designer out there that's working within the K 12 sectors, Eric, as you said, uh, you know, taking that. Special needs areas and putting that as a top priority.
Skyler: Don't throw it down to the bottom of the master planning or whatever the case, like this needs to be looked into just as much as any of the other classrooms. And then Mary Jill, for your incredible insight. Thank you so much for, for sharing that view of that teacher. Um, hopefully every architect out there who's going to design will get a chance to go in on a classroom.
Mary Jo: My door is open. Come on over. Yes, exactly. And if
Skyler: they don't, at least they got some insight from this episode, hopefully. So seriously, thank you both for being on the episode. This has been another episode of Laying the Foundation. If you'd like to find out more about the Laying the Foundation podcast, you can head over to any podcast streaming platform such as Spotify, iTunes, Google Podcasts, and others.
Skyler: You can also find out more about CMBA Architects through social media such as Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Additionally, you can head over to the CMBA website at cmbaarchitects. com. If you're an architecture or design professional or an intern looking for an internship within those fields, please be sure to check out our website and click on the careers tab to find out more about what opportunities we offer.
Skyler: This has been another episode of the Laying the Foundation podcast. We'll see you next time.
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September 5, 2024