The Importance of Collaboration: Architects & Educators

In this episode of Laying the Foundation, we sit down with two of CMBA's principal Architects: Courtney Koch and Lee Buekelman, to discuss the critical role of collaboration between architects and educators in creating successful K-12 learning environments. Learn how effective partnerships and communication can lead to innovative and inspiring school designs that meet the needs of students and educators alike.

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Episode Transcript

Skyler: Welcome to another episode of laying the foundation

Skyler: Welcome back everybody to another episode of the laying the foundation podcast. My name is Skylar I'm the host today and joining me today are a couple familiar wonderful familiar faces Uh firstly to my left we have the wonderful Courtney Koch Courtney. Welcome back to the show

Courtney: Hi, thanks Skylar.

Courtney: Absolutely. I'm so glad to be here.

Skyler: Yeah, glad to have you once again. And then over to my right, we have, uh, the often on the show also, actually both of you have been on the show quite a few times, Lee Buchelman.

Lee: I didn't get an adjective.

Skyler: You're the wonderful Courtney and I'm just. The Leadman, the the bin, the biophilic focused lead Cleman.

Skyler: There we go. That's what you, that's the one you do every podcast. We get it in there, Skylar. It's gonna be, and then we just kicking it off now. Now we can leave it. It's done. We don't have to talk about it. All right. It's not gonna come up this time. I don't know. It might, yeah. . We'll see where things go. Um, speaking of where things are going to go today, we are talking about the importance of collaboration between the architects and the educators.

Skyler: So we're talking, you know, K 12 schools. Um, although this would also probably affect a higher ed as well, but we're kind of keeping things focused more for K 12 in this particular episode. And we're talking about Um, you guys and how you guys have collaborated and worked directly with the teachers at the school, the staff, the faculty, um, to find out what their needs are for the projects that you're doing for them, for the schools that you're designing and the spaces within those schools and how their input is important and why it's important and how we implement it into the plan.

Skyler: So kicking things off at what point, cause you guys have talked about. Sitting down and talking with the teachers. You, like yourselves, have done this. Um, at what point in the process do you guys usually jump on this, this part of the kind of planning process?

Courtney: Well, we have to start very early with this, Skylar, because any spaces that we're going to create need to come together early on in that programming, because it's not really about the space we're creating.

Courtney: It's about how the users are going to use that space. So being able to collaborate with the teachers very, very early on and start seeing what their needs are, what their wants are, how to bring them together is really the big point of all of the work we're doing, and providing that opportunity to. Talk with them and get their ideas on the table before we even start putting thoughts together.

Lee: To add to that is probably because those spaces all require certain dimensions, right? They all, and those spaces today are getting larger and larger and require more flexibility, more movement, all of that. So that plays into square footages. That plays into, uh, ergonomics, all of those things come into effect.

Lee: So the earlier we know those. The better we can lay out that building right the first time.

Skyler: Right, yeah, exactly. Because that's, I mean, that's kind of the key thing, right? We're building this once, hopefully. We're not having to rebuild this and ideally we build it and it lasts for a good long time and it's usable for a good long time.

Skyler: That's correct. So what does that kind of, like, paint the scene for me? What does that look like to collaborate with the teachers? Are you calling them all together and having them sit down and pitch ideas? Are you giving them some kind of a worksheet to kind of go through and describe what they're looking for?

Skyler: Like, what does that look like? Yeah.

Courtney: I think there's a lot of different opportunities. You mentioned just even a couple. And I think between Lee and I, and even the rest of our team, we've done different activities with different faculty members because there are certain things we're looking for. Now it could be very early on and we're asking them questions and starting to get their needs and wants listed.

Courtney: It's compiled, but a lot of it comes down to seeing what spaces are looking like. And we take groups on tours to see what's out there. Um, there's a lot of spaces that we're going to say are trendy that just because that's the way it's, you know, going in education doesn't mean that those spaces are going to work for everyone.

Courtney: We need to sometimes see those spaces in action and have. Our faculty that we're working with, talk to other teachers and hear how it's working for them. So that's one of the big things that I think we've done a lot is, is seeing, and we say seeing is believing, because if you can work together and talk with your colleagues about what could work for you, that's really a good piece to bring us all together on the same page quickly,

Lee: right?

Lee: Process has been humbling over the past, what, 10, 12 years we've been doing this Courtney, uh, because when we first started, we were taking them to a Right. We are going to bigger cities to where these, these ideas were being implemented, but now lately we've been taking them back to our schools as we've been getting them in.

Lee: That's a humbling to hear what teachers always have to say when, uh, when you let them open up about, you know, the project that you did for them. And it's all good. We all learn from, from what we've done and it always makes the next project bigger, but learning from learning from seeing, learning, believing you put yourself on the, in the spotlight.

Lee: As soon as you ask that question, that's true. That's true.

Courtney: You do. And just because some things work for one district does not mean that it's going to work for all districts, which is why. All projects are unique. Yes, schools need classrooms and breakout spaces and libraries and gyms, but the way that those spaces come together is where this collaboration is going to be seen, because what works for one district does not always work for the other.

Courtney: And someone can, can really make a space work well for them and how they can envision teaching in it. Rather than, you know, someone walking into a space and just thinking it could work for them.

Skyler: Right, right. So, well, and out of curiosity, going along with that, when you guys take people to tour, do you try to focus?

Skyler: Cause Lee, you mentioned like, sometimes we've done big cities in the past and then a lot more, we, we focus more in district. Is that something that we kind of like go for is more in district schools. So like area region, whatever, um, to kind of see what those look like, because there's a lot of like similarities.

Lee: It really depends on what they're looking for. You know, if they're looking for an elementary school. We're not going to take them to high school, right? You know, right. So we, we try to find projects. project accurate, um, examples that we bring them to. And yeah, they're not always our projects. Sure. Yeah.

Lee: We're all learning too, at the same time. You know, I think, uh, before we even get to those two or sometimes though, you know, that's not a, it's not a large group, usually the board. Um, and it's also usually a group of teachers that have been nominated or voted on or. Assigned or voluntold. I don't know exactly how sometimes that gets taken care of by the superintendents, but you know, those, those start out with smaller groups and, um, they're fun.

Lee: They're, they're long days, but they're fun days, you know, cause you really build that, that trust and that relationship early on. Um, just the back and forth and talking and what works, what doesn't work. And that, that trust then carries on throughout the rest of the design, you know, as you guys continue to talk, um, through those, through those steps and through what that design needs to look like.

Lee: And it's a lot

Courtney: easier when you've had those conversations together and see that space because then you can recall that later when you're also talking about how space works. Because you can say, remember when we were in this. Space and what that looked like. It's much easier when you're on the same page and you've seen things.

Courtney: Now, it might not also be like Lisa, you, we might not do tours everywhere to see things either. We may have some inspiration images. We may have some, you know, mocked up rooms that we're talking through when we're meeting with the faculty and different teachers and working through what those spaces look like.

Courtney: Need in them as well. So not just what you're seeing as you're walking through a space, but really digging into some of those, those needs that show up on that list a lot. Um, when you're looking at your own personal classroom, I think it's easy to get into the details of. I need so many storage carts and I need whiteboards and all of the pieces that need to come together.

Courtney: It's, it's in the minutia when we really start talking to each of the teachers to find out what's going to make their room. Most impactful.

Skyler: Absolutely. Those little details are, yeah, those are going to help shape kind of the big picture of how things are going to need to get organized and adjusted or whatever the case.

Skyler: So within that, I guess, and it kind of going off of what you've already kind of said, what are kind of those benefits of taking the time to speak with the teachers and the educators? And then what are some of the challenges that you guys have seen when collaborating with them? I mean, I'm assuming they probably ask for quite a bit.

Skyler: If they're a passionate person, a passionate educator, they ask for a lot. Like, I want things exactly. And sometimes we can't always do it exactly the way that they want.

Courtney: Well, I think Lee and I have talked that almost everyone has the same thing at the top of their list when we start with them. And that is storage.

Lee: It affects them directly, right? They, especially elementary teachers and early childhood and, um, middle school teachers, even, I mean, they just have so many, so much curriculum now. So, so many hands on manipulatives and things like that and robotics and everything, right. And they just need places to go. So it is a legitimate concern.

Lee: Um, but that is always. Top item. Number one store. Where am I going to store my stuff? Yes, that's fair. That's a

Courtney: big piece though, that when we do have collaboration and bring all those different voices together, though, it's hearing what someone else needs in their space that may impact you too. So hearing the different voices, bringing everyone together is one of the positive things where, you know, not everyone is going to need.

Courtney: 12 different things in their room. But if they can start hearing what others have, is there a way to bring them together? So that instead of having multiple repeats of spaces, can we have them share spaces? Can they work together to find a solution that works for all of them? Because we know there's not unlimited budgets.

Courtney: There's not a limited size. If we keep building, you know, storage rooms for each individual teacher, we're going to run out of space for the students to be able to use. Exactly. So how can we bring all of those voices together to find the best solutions for them, but yet still stay within budget and give them the spaces that they need?

Lee: Wouldn't you agree that that's our biggest benefit, but also our biggest challenge is to get teachers and educators and administration to think. Right. Right. I mean, we, we want to make sure that our needs are met, you know, especially not if every teacher's at the table in these focus groups, because it's usually not because that gets to be a really large group and you can't cater to everyone.

Lee: So like I said, they're usually assigned maybe by one per grade level or two. Um, and then they represent the rest of their, their team, right? So we're trusting that they take it back. They have those conversations, but that's, that's the next heart. That's probably the hardest thing is to get people to think.

Lee: 10 years, 15 years beyond themselves. Right. How do I set up this teaching space that I may not even teach it? That's true. You know what I mean? That, that someone else may be teaching in and that, that's a challenge to, um, cause let's be honest. I mean, they went to school for, for education and we all know what we know because that's what we've been educated in.

Lee: And so when you have to break that thought of what 10 years. That's a challenge. And so that just takes some iterations, that just takes some practice to, to kind of break that down. It's also finding the right people on the team.

Skyler: Sure. The people that are passionate about it, the people that want to see things be done well as opposed to just, I want, I want, I want.

Lee: We've seen, we've seen it where one person can completely stop. Doll design, right? You know what I mean? Right. Um, that could be a challenge.

Skyler: Absolutely. So kind of going off of what you say, or sorry, from what you said, um, looking, trying to look forward that 10, 15 years. I mean, what did the architects, what are the architects doing to kind of help or ensure that the designs meet, you know, the evolving needs for those educators and those students, 10, 15 years down the, the future?

Skyler: What kind of recommendations are we making when the teachers are giving us these ideas? Um, to help lead in that direction

Lee: when you use just one big general word, flexibility, flexibility. And it's really hard to define that for each district. Right. I would say a lot of times we run into, you know, these are our specific needs, but how do we pull them back to think about, okay, how do we do that same thing, but in a flexible, non permanent way.

Lee: Sure. Right. Maybe you don't get 30 feet of linear casework to store your stuff anymore. Now maybe we're on mobile carts that roll to a storage room or maybe there's a shared storage room between the two. Right. And it's just a room of shelving, right? But it's, it's trying to break down that permanence. Of fixtures and of things that you can't cost money to change someday, but just keeping rooms fairly open and flexible, you know?

Courtney: Yeah. And with how things have changed, you think back 20 years ago, 30 years ago, we were fine working in our rooms at our individual desks and that's how the room was set up, but now seeing how students are working and things are much more hands on and you need a lot of open layout space. Like we said, flexibility is key.

Courtney: If a teacher wants to set up a room because they're teaching in a certain Method that day they can because the room is flexible, and we're not locked into only being able to teach in certain ways and as students evolve and as learning has evolved, we've found that students need different ways to connect with them.

Courtney: Not everyone is going to be able to learn in the same environment either. So being able to have different areas active that you can bring students in and out of or be able to focus with one or two. So if you have a group of two or even a group of a few that maybe just need that little extra push, that's going to be great to have adjacent to the room that you're in or within the room.

Courtney: Yeah. So that, you know, you as the teacher are working with your group of students and you have a pair or two that can work with other students, but that room has to be flexible for everyone in that space. Yes. And not change really how you're having to do things, but enhance what you're doing with the space that's provided.

Courtney: Yeah.

Lee: Efficiency. It used to be everything happened in your classroom. Everything. But now it's now we're sending kids out to the hallways or we're sending kids out to small group rooms. And, um, so even having that variety of learning areas around. You know, those spaces maybe work for today, but someday maybe those little rooms become offices or whatever, you know, it's, it's just leaving the opportunities open, right.

Lee: Um, for future growth, future, uh, changes in curriculum or whatever, whatever may come down the path, we don't even know yet.

Skyler: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can't predict the future, but we can try to create and develop things into a flexible space that can be used for a variety of purposes.

Skyler: Have, uh, I mean, obviously we've talked about this. You guys have already done a lot of collaboration with multiple different projects and the educators at those projects. Can you give me some examples of successful times that you guys have been able to sit down and like, what did you do? How did you do it?

Skyler: Um, what worked, what did, uh, maybe, maybe something that we've changed over the years that didn't work maybe the first time or so that we, we tried it out.

Lee: Yeah, I mean, there's a, there's a lot of them. I don't know if there's one that we've done together lately. We've kind of both gone our separate ways here as a recent, but the most recent one that I can think of that I thought was, um, incredibly successful was Chamberlain.

Lee: Oh, sure. And what was unique about that one was, uh, it was an elementary school. I don't know if we've talked about this one or not on a, on a podcast. Yeah. Yeah. They, uh, we, we had a

Skyler: whole episode

Lee: with, uh,

Skyler: yeah,

Lee: that's right. And, uh, but we didn't get into maybe necessarily the exact design process, but what we had them do was we actually gave these.

Lee: Oh, nice. And then each one of those colors, and then they had to put little flags in them as what represented a function of their classroom.

Skyler: Okay.

Lee: And what they had to do is they took an 8 12 by 11 piece of paper and they had to take this Play Doh and arrange their classroom thinking that the paper was their classroom, and where did all these functions occur in their classroom?

Lee: Well, I mean, this paper was, uh, Oh yeah, they had a ton of, and they came up with what had to be in the classroom. Right. Right. So this, again, this is part of them. We're not assuming what they're doing in there. They're, they're putting it together. Well, then what we had them do was, okay, now two of you get together first and second grade teacher or second and third grade teacher, you guys get together and figure out, okay, what's one of those things can come out of your classrooms.

Lee: It can become a shared piece. Oh, so then they had to work together. Right. And then we put them together one more time. Okay. How can four of you share something? Wow. You know, so it really made them think about that collaboration piece, not

Skyler: just

Lee: among the design process, but okay. How do we collaborate as teachers?

Lee: And okay. Do I really need that to myself? Right. Or can we do a shared library or can we do a, a shared, um, storage wet zone to do crafts or whatever it may be, you know, or these, these title rooms or whatever it may be, you know? And so that exercise just really brought a, a, an agreement to. The design, and we never had to go back and argue about an argues, maybe a strong word, but continue to discuss why we did what we did, right?

Lee: Cause they owned it. They actually came up with, you know, so, and then it would, from there it was just tweaking. Yeah. It was just, it was just little things here and there, but the general concept was bought into early because. We were, we did it together.

Skyler: And I'm sure that helps to kind of pull away from people being upset afterwards.

Skyler: Like, well, my something didn't get, well, you guys worked on this together and you guys found a solution and then we're kind of rolling off of that solution. Like that was, that was partially your idea.

Lee: Yeah. I don't think we've ever been bold to say that, say it that way, but it's actually your fault. No, I'm just kidding.

Lee: But

Courtney: buy in is a huge thing because I think with everything, with any activity you do with. Faculty and teachers and tours and everything else that you could do with them. Buy in is huge because if we would provide a plan that shows what they need to do, and they didn't have any input on that plan, it's not going to be nearly as successful because they were not part of that original process.

Skyler: Absolutely. I mean, we've

Lee: done that, right? We, I mean, we've been in that situation too, where we're just told, put this together and then people are asking you, well, why, why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? Why'd you do that? So. Great questions.

Skyler: Why couldn't you have done it this way? Right. I have these ideas.

Skyler: Why don't you listen to me? That's always a challenge, of course, a

Lee: collaboration.

Skyler: Yeah, absolutely. Courtney, did you have a examples as far as stuff that you've worked on that you have worked with the teachers and the educators to, to kind of discuss that?

Courtney: Yes, I have. We, like I, like we said, with the activity he did, we've done similar things with different faculty members too.

Courtney: Um, but bringing the voices together, I think is the most exciting. Yeah. My school districts, we kept it very. Teacher friendly. So it was a Google document that you could all add your thoughts to, but everyone was able to take time after seeing things and having discussions to then give their input. So it was bringing the voices together so that they could hear from each other.

Courtney: Whereas sometimes when you're in the room together, you, you don't. Really have time to process what you want to say or, or bring to the table. But because we left this document open and kind of evolving, people could keep adding things like, okay, I saw something like this. Can we talk about it? Or can we, can we see how this could be incorporated?

Courtney: And I think going back and forth with this living document throughout the design process helped because. Everyone could get their, their perspective and brought to the table. And we were able to, to get thoughts from everyone. Whereas, you know, maybe if someone wasn't able to be at the table, they were able to still add input and bring that all together.

Courtney: So that buy in there too. Was very important to the group. And it was fun seeing kind of the different comments that came up after we would meet and what new thoughts came to someone, because you know, you don't have thoughts, right? When you're sitting at, it all comes to you at like 2 a. m. When you're like, I should have said that.

Skyler: Yes. Unless you're the theater teacher who has like a minor in improv or something like that. Right. Like it's not natural to like, yeah, just have ideas just immediately pop and like the good ones. Right. Like sometimes you might have an idea and it's like, I'm not going to say it right now because I haven't processed this idea whatsoever.

Skyler: This just came to me and it's crazy, but no, I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. I got to like write things out and then be like, yeah, okay, that works. That works. But, um, Courtney, you had mentioned too. And I mean, both of you, I think had, had done projects as well, where Um, and I know this is kind of going almost a little bit off topic, but collaborating with the educated,

Courtney: absolutely.

Courtney: The students, this is my favorite piece. And I've done this for a few districts now as we've kind of kept evolving the process, but we received the book. If I built a school. By our superintendent from Chamberlain, Justin Zeiss sent it to us after the project was done. And we thought this book, just reading it through brought so much, I don't know, just emotion, excitement about building a school from a child's perspective that we have now had the book with our different student groups and have read it.

Courtney: And they've put together their ideas of what they're looking for as well. So as we read through this book, Fun book. It's, it's very like far fetched ideas and exciting things to, to think about zip lines and slides to get to different areas of your school, but it gets them thinking big. And I think a lot of times as educators and as architects, we might not think as big and as creative and as exciting as children do, but giving them that opportunity, whereas they might not be able to tell you what they want because Either they're littles or they just don't know what to expect in the design process.

Courtney: They can draw out these ideas after hearing the story and they can put, put their, their imagery together and we then take those images and apply it to their spaces and they can then see their ideas come together at the school when they do get to then be in these spaces. So that's one of the big pieces that I love doing.

Courtney: When we transition and get to work with the kids too.

Skyler: Yeah, that's super fun. Like they're, they're so capable of thinking outside the box because they've never seen the box. They don't know what the box is that, that contains everything. What do you, what ideas do you have? Go crazy, go wild, and they, they can do that, right?

Skyler: Wild to an adult is like, you know, well, let's put a really nice coffee maker into the, into the break room. Whereas wild for a kid is like, what have we got, chutes and ladders that you can go into the break room and straight over to the whatever, you know? So yeah, no, that's, that's awesome. That's super fun.

Skyler: And Lee, I know with the Orange City school, that was also something that you guys had kind of implemented there as well, where you guys had the kids Um, do some designs as well.

Lee: Yeah, that was a little different. That was a little different. And during COVID we, we sent them pictures of, of their building.

Lee: We had them color it or imagine what this building could look like from the exterior. And yeah, that's why that building. Has the colorful panels it has because the kids think in color. And so there's a big one that way. But it got, it

Skyler: got implemented. Like their, their idea or one of their ideas or whatever the case got implemented.

Skyler: It is a really cool, like it doesn't look like schools. And yeah, no, you wouldn't guess. Yeah. Well, it was big enough for sure. But yeah, it's, it's colorful. It's really cool. So,

Lee: yeah, I think, you know, as just for, for districts out there, you know, when you're have an opportunity to do a school or do a project like that, it's, it's Man, I think don't miss the opportunity to use that as an education piece to your students, right?

Lee: Right. That is, that is what they're learning in school. Hands on, right? That is hands on learning to be a part of that process, to see that from the design. Like Courtney, like she said, taking them through that book. The teachers actually take them through that book. They sit there and they, they talk about it and what that looks like.

Lee: And then, You know, all the way out to construction, make sure those kids are seeing the building go up and use it as an opportunity to learn, you know, cause that's, that's STEM, right? That that's, that's all of it coming together right there. That's, that's why you're learning those math equations that you don't know why you're learning until.

Lee: Right. Exactly. You see it used in the real world, right? For building,

Skyler: yeah. And it's important to point out that, like, the title of this is The Importance of Collaboration, Architects and Educators, that's not limited to just the making the project, right? Courtney, I know you guys have been doing some really cool STEM stuff with one of the schools.

Skyler: We did a whole podcast episode on it. Not that we can't, like, bring it up again, but with the Legos and the kids and learning to kind of, uh, some of the, the, The early elements of architecture and design from that. I mean, that's cool too.

Courtney: Yeah. And it's been great seeing that happen because as the kids get excited and want to see more of their space, but then also being able to tie it to what we do, it helps break down those barriers of who we are in their school and what we're doing and how they can be a part of the process.

Courtney: And it all, like we said, comes back to that hands on learning that they're doing now. Everything that they're doing can be applied and, yeah. Right there. We have a working job site for them and they can see everything that's going into the process.

Skyler: Get these kids in some hard hats and some safety vests.

Skyler: And that's what we do show them around the construction site. And yeah, no, that's super fun. I actually

Courtney: led a group through the Harlan school that's being worked on. And we took them through because they're going to be the first class that's going to be in this new edition. So that's cool. They got to go in and check it out.

Skyler: I mean, I'm sure those kids too, like after like when school starts and they're going around, they're like, yeah, I saw this when it was just the bare bones and you know, all this other stuff. That's, that's fun. That's really fun. So what have I not, what have I not touched on? Is there anything else that you guys wanted to make sure was mentioned, um, as far as like collaborating with the educators or the educated, um, as far as like school design and such goes?

Lee: I think not, not so much. Probably that part, that part of it, but it's what. Why trust these guys? Why trust their process? Why trust the questions they're asking? And I think a big part of it is we know we're not educators. We know we're not teaching every day. But at CMBA, we try really hard and we send, we invest in our staff to go to nation, national conferences on education.

Lee: We're learning about these trends make a difference. Um, probably before they're even trends sometimes, you know, so the questions that we're bringing to the table. They are going to be pushing you. They're, they're not questions from 10 years ago. We're, we're out there learning. Okay. What is coming? What is the studies on mental health?

Lee: What is that? What are the impacts of biophilia on education? I got it. Skyler got it. And why should that, why is that important to schools? And that's what we're out there learning. Because yeah, we're architects. We're not the teachers, but we can shape spaces to have an effect on the learning environment and how those kids learn absolutely at all.

Lee: Daylight. All of that comes into play. So the questions that we're pushing and we're asking really begin to Uh, with that education that we're, we're investing in, into our staff. Yeah. So, so it's like, why trust you to like, why does this work? Um, because we're, we're out there learning it as well. Absolutely.

Lee: And bringing it back. Absolutely.

Skyler: Yeah, these teachers are, are, you know, they're focused on teaching the kids, right? We're, we're focused on making sure that the spaces that they have support that and enhance that and so yeah, our research are all the stuff that we're doing so that we can bring it to the educators and then the educators can say, here's how I need it.

Skyler: And then we can say, here's why you need these things.

Lee: That's key. We're not, we're not trying to tell you how to teach. We're not trying to tell them how to teach. We want to learn how you teach and we want to enhance it. Yes, that, that's really what we, that's the questions we ask, right? Even though we may comes across like, well, why are you trying to tell me how to teach?

Lee: That's not what we're doing. We're not, we're, we're trying to learn it so we can help you.

Skyler: The collaboration is a two way street, you know, and, and I think there's another thing to be said too about. The fact that, you know, the teachers have their own lingo and their own sort of language in a sense. And then as the architects, we have our own language and it can be difficult to bridge that gap and to try to like explain to them how we're doing things, why we're doing things.

Skyler: So, which is why it's so important to be able to collaborate so that we don't just design this whole building and we're like, boom, here's a bunch of technical stuff. Why we did it. The teachers are like, I don't know what any of this means, right? We sit down with the teachers, we talk to them, we share what we know, they share what they know.

Skyler: Yeah. And we put it all together. Awesome. Well, hey, thank you guys both for joining me for this episode. I really appreciate you guys sitting down with me and telling me about how you guys are collaborating with the educators and hopefully there are educators out there that are listening that can feel a little bit of reassurance knowing that architects like us care about what they need and what they're looking for within their classrooms.

Skyler: And hopefully there's some architects out there listening to that are like, Hey, I need to put a little bit more focus into you. Those educators and making sure that I collaborate with them so that I don't miss out on the valuable insights that they can offer. So, but whatever the case, seriously, thank you guys both for, for taking the time out of your day to have no Skylar.

Skyler: Thank you. Yeah. If you'd like to find out more about the laying the foundation podcast, you can head over to any podcast streaming platform, such as Spotify, iTunes, Google podcasts, and others. You can also find out more about CMBA architects through social media, such as Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.

Skyler: Additionally, you can head over to the CBA website@cbaarchitects.com. If you're an architecture or design professional or an intern looking for an internship within those fields, please be sure to check out our website and click on the careers tab to find out more about what opportunities we offer.

Skyler: This has been another episode of The Laying The Foundation Podcast. We'll see you next time.